Classic Hammond Organ Tone (split from Ideal log volume control)

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Classic Hammond Organ Tone (split from Ideal log volume control)

Postby cyto on Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:15 pm

Leslie147 wrote:How do you get quotes to work here?

When you post replies, is the "Disable BBCode" option checked in the options panel? If so, try un-checking it and see if that works.

Leslie147 wrote:I wonder if linear interpolation between sin1 values from the table is the way to go, or whether low-pass filtering of the output of a non-interpolated oscillator is just as good (bearing in mind that one can tailor the cut-off frequency of the filter to the desired frequency of the sine wave).

In keeping with the spirit of your avatar, have you tried band-passing the waveforms at the the desired frequency. That's how the Hammonds "tailored" their sine waves. Might be worth experimenting with a few different filter designs.

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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby trogluddite on Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:16 pm

Leslie147 wrote:Is there any reason why I shouldn't update the version on this PC? When 2.0 first came out I saw some postings about not being able to open .osm files created using earlier versions, and that put me off. But has that all been overcome now?

SM may make a few changes to older schematics when opened in SM2.0.x...
-Code and assembly default to running in stage(2) rather than stage(1). It would be rare for this to make much difference, unless there is stuff which is hard-coded to use specific stages - in which case you could edit them to restore the correct stage order. Stage(0) parts are unaffected by this.
-A new trigger system. The initial bugs with this were fixed soon after release. There were very few reports of changed schematic behaviour, mostly due to clunky workarounds used to overcome limitations in the old system. There is also a shortcut (CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+T) that lets you disable the new system if you get problems.
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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby Leslie147 on Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:31 pm

cyto wrote:... is the "Disable BBCode" option checked in the options panel? If so, try un-checking it and see if that works.


Got it! BBCode was disabled. Thank you for that.

Interesting comment:
cyto wrote: In keeping with the spirit of your avatar, have you tried band-passing the waveforms at the the desired frequency. That's how the Hammonds "tailored" their sine waves
Presumably a reference to the apparent 2 kHz band-pass characteristic of the horn/driver assembly in a Leslie. Surely, in this application, poles below the sine-wave frequency would be wasted as the lack of interpolation only causes harmonic distortion? I will have a go at LPF and linear interpolation soon.

Have you tried using a simple BPF in Leslie simulation, like is done in the Dynacord CLS222 - they use a gyrator resonating with a capacitor - and, if so, have you noticed how far from the sound of the real thing the result is? There's an interesting paper on the web by Jorge Hererra of CCRMA, 'Discrete Time Emulation of the Leslie Speaker', recommending that the whole thing is done by 'convolution' (of the input signal with one or more time-variant signals, defying the formal definition of convolution). The paper is on sale by the AES for $20, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a free copy somewhere. That's probably rather too much processing for Synthmaker on a typical PC but it may point to a direction for fruitful research.

Trogluddite, thank you for your advice on the current version. I will probably make the switch.

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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby cyto on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:57 pm

Leslie147 wrote:Presumably a reference to the apparent 2 kHz band-pass characteristic of the horn/driver assembly in a Leslie. Surely, in this application, poles below the sine-wave frequency would be wasted as the lack of interpolation only causes harmonic distortion? I will have a go at LPF and linear interpolation soon.

Actually, I assumed you were a Hammond organ fan, and I was speaking of the BP filters in the actual tone generator of the tonewheel organs. Though thinking about this issue, I wonder how "pure" a tone can reasonably be expected without having to resort to some pretty intensive math. Are you working on something in particular or is this more an academic pursuit?

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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby Leslie147 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:34 am

cyto wrote: I assumed you were a Hammond organ fan, and I was speaking of the BP filters in the actual tone generator of the tonewheel organs


I wouldn't class myself as a Hammond aficionado, more a Leslie nut! In my view, one of the most interesting sound effects that hasn't yet been achieved accurately in DSP.

I didn't know there were intentional BPFs in Hammond organs. Looking at schematics such as http://www.captain-foldback.com/Hammond_sub/schematics/M_schematic.gif it's clear that some of the generator solenoids are connected to the drawbars via a series capacitor and a transformer, but most aren't, and the pre-amp circuitry that follows, such as http://www.captain-foldback.com/Hammond_sub/schematics/ao28.jpg doesn't appear to involve BPFs. Can you point to a schematic that shows BPFs?

I am aware that the higher-pitch tone generators produce fairly pure sine waves, simply on account of the strange shape of their discs. Before I'd seen one, I was expecting their shapes to look like sine waves bent around a circular axis but, actually, they're not. The induced voltage is proportional to the rate of change of the flux in a reluctance circuit so the further the tooth is away from the solenoid polepiece, the smaller the voltage its motion generates. The end result is teeth that look rather like full-wave rectified sine waves! http://b3world.com/TechInfo/figure5_1.html Apparently, the lower-frequency generators are designed to produces waveforms containing some harmonics http://www.electricdruid.net/index.php?page=info.hammond.

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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby Leslie147 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:24 pm

Got it, and I'm ashamed it took me so long. I didn't spot an explanation to this on the web.

Of the 91 tonewheel generators in the Hammond, numbers 49 to 91 each feed the drawbars via a series capacitor and a transformer. Apparently, the value of the capacitor and the leakage inductance of the transformer are chosen, with the inductance of the pickup coil, to make this series tuned circuit resonant at the frequency desired from the tonewheel. Some of this is written in web sites such as http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/hammond_tonewheel_capacitors.html but the reason for needing filters isn't explained.

The reason would appear to be that the shape of tone wheel required to obtain an exact sin wave can't be made - there's always an approximation. Maths/physics-phobes may wish to move on at this point!

The EMF produced by each coil is related to the magnetic flux passing through its permanently-magnetised core (rod) by Faraday's Law of induction: E(t) = k1.dPhi(t)/dt ... where Phi is the flux and k1 is a constant (involving things like the number of turns in the pickup coil, and a negative sign). In words, the magnitude of the EMF is proportional to the rate of change of Phi.

The magnetic circuit includes a Magneto-Motive Force provided by the permanent magnetisation, other iron (high-mu) parts including the tonewheel, and an air gap between the periphery of the wheel and the end of the core. The very-low-mu of the air dominates this magnetic circuit and acts as a reluctance that varies with time, R(t). Like current in an electrical circuit, where I = EMF/R, the flux Phi(t) = k2/R(t) ... where k2 is another constant involving the MMF minus whatever leakage flux.

The magnitude of R(t) is proportional to the length of the gap so it is related to the radius of the tonewheel r(t) by some more constants: R(t) = k3 + k4.r(t) ... where k3 accounts for the minimum gap and k4 involves things like the effective area of the end of the core.

So Phi(t) = k2/{k3 + k4.r(t)}. Then E(t) = k1.d/dt[k2/{k3 + k4.r(t)}].

Re-arranging, integrating both sides, and re-arranging:

r(t) = [(k1.k2)/k4].[1/IntegralE(t).dt] - k3/k4

In order to generate a simple sine wave, E(t) = sin(wt) for which the integral is -cos(wt) which has a value of zero when wt = Pi/2, the result for r(t) goes to infinity which can't be achieved. Indeed,if E(t) is to be an alternating voltage then it must pass through zero and r(t) will 'blow up' at some point in the cycle. Indeed, whatever practical function is used for r(t), the generated voltage can't be a simple sine wave.

If r(t) = cos(wt), the simplest case: E(t) = k1.k2.[k4.sin(wt)]/[k3 + k4.cos(wt)]^2
... and the presence of the square is indicative of harmonic distortion. It could be that the profiles actually used were determined iteratively, or by a very clever man with a slide rule (in 1934). The use of BPFs rather than LPFs is probably only a matter of adding the smallest number of additional components.

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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby cyto on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:07 pm

Leslie147 wrote:Got it, and I'm ashamed it took me so long. I didn't spot an explanation to this on the web.

Of the 91 tonewheel generators in the Hammond, numbers 49 to 91 each feed the drawbars via a series capacitor and a transformer.

Exactly, though for some reason I was thinking that these LC filters were used on most of the tonewheels (except for the "complex" ones for the pedals). And please don't get me started on on all this Hammond analysis ;) . It would be embarrassing to admit how many wasted hours/days/weeks/months I have spent "decoding" the mysteries. I am finally at a point where I can just appreciate the beast for what it is- certainly greater than the sum of its parts. Though I will mention that I don't think you can underestimate the "intangibles" of the system: the hysteresis of the magnets, the imperfect wax and paper capacitors, etc, etc. etc.

Leslie147 wrote:It could be that the profiles actually used were determined iteratively, or by a very clever man with a slide rule (in 1934). The use of BPFs rather than LPFs is probably only a matter of adding the smallest number of additional components.
Chris

I believe the reason for the LC networks was that the "crosstalk" of the tonewheels always drove Laurens Hammond crazy and these were his attempt to suppress it. Funny how things like crosstalk and keyclick are the very things that Hammond lovers drool over. Though, have you seen the size of the caps/tfrmrs in those things? I would imagine simple RC lowpass filters would have been more economical if it were just a matter of price/space.

-cyto

BTW- it might be a good idea to start new threads for each of these topics. You might get more people to join in if these topics were not cloaked under the "Ideal log volume control" heading.
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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby trogluddite on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:07 am

Off to work now, but I should be able to split the topics into their own threads if you like.
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Re: Ideal log volume control

Postby Leslie147 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:35 am

trogluddite wrote:Off to work now, but I should be able to split the topics into their own threads if you like.

Could be a good idea to elicit input from others who may have trodden these paths before.

cyto wrote:You might get more people to join in if these topics were not cloaked under the "Ideal log volume control" heading.
Indeed, although I probably shouldn't accept full responsibility for heading the thread off in the Hammond direction :D

Interesting comment
cyto wrote:I believe the reason for the LC networks was that the "crosstalk" of the tonewheels always drove Laurens Hammond crazy and these were his attempt to suppress it
... and the physical distribution of the different generator coils (e.g. shown here http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/hammond_tonewheel_capacitors/magnets.gif) also looks like an effort to reduce 'beehive'.

The Qs of these BPFs are likely rather small. Most (37) of the capacitors are 0.105 uF so for middle-C, 440 Hz, the total resonating inductance must be 1.25 H and then the Q = [sqrt(L/C)]/R = 3450/R. If the windings are anything like guitar pickups, which is very likely, then they will have resistances of several kilohms, and the transformer primary likewise. If the total winding resistance is 3000 ohms the Q will be about 1 and the slopes not far off -6 dB/octave. I guess that's still enough to help a bit. There are some wonderful samples of atonal 'beehive' in the E-mu library and IIRC in the Vintage Keys.

However, I still wonder about the waveforms, their inherent distortion for practical tonewheel shapes, and the consequence that anyone using pure sine waves in a Hammond simulation could be overlooking a matter that might be significant.

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