Clicking on retrig

[electrogear]

First of all, I'm using Windows 7. I know it's not ideal to be using an unsupported Operating System which is why I've included the osm for others to test. This is not a new bug though, I've had it before but never got around to testing properly and reporting it.

I think there's not just one problem, but a number of problems in various components causing clicks when retriggering notes, (e.g. in a mono synth). The attached file shows that when using a sine oscillator in combination with a stock ADSR, there are no evident clicks when the Midi module is in Mono mode, HOWEVER, there are a number of combinations which WILL cause clicks. I think the best way for me to demonstrate this is to give a list of instructions to follow:

1) Open the file and make sure the number of voices is set to 1 in the Midi to Poly module. You might like to experiment with combinations of hold/retrigger but I set them all on (except 'using samples').

2) Set the sound source to 'Sine' and the Envelope to 'Stock ADSR'. Play some notes. You might notice some tiny dull clicks but these are quite mild.

2b) Now set the envelope to either 'Stock MS Env' or 'New MS Env'. There's quite heavy clicking here.

3) Set the sound source to 'Wave Player' and select any envelope. Play some notes. There's some moderately heavy clicks here which are uniform across all of the envelopes which would suggest that something in the wave player is amiss...>>

3b) Now try Tzarl's Waveplayer for the sound source and notice how there's clicking with the stock Multi Stage envelopes but Tzarls workaround envelope and the stock ADSR/AHDSR produce a clean sound. This is of course the 'smooth retrig' option that Tzarls has given as a work-around. This envelope also solves the (2b) scenario.

So I guess there's two obvious problems here - firstly the stock Wave player, and secondly the stock multi-stage envelopes. I know Tzarls workarounds work well for both of these problems, but it's not a nice solution having to have those extra sections and code to solve the clicking. This is not something I've looked into in any depth because I'm only just starting to learn code so correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't this be some behaviour within SM that needs to be fixed and not the modules themselves? Either way I think when offering 'stock' modules these need to be 100% clean so something needs to be addressed.

These are the clicks which stand out, but there seems to be some sort of click with just about any combination, some clicks are only just audible and some stand out like a sore thumb - either way there's definitely bugs somewhere. It would just be nice to be able to build even a simple synth with no glitching. I don't like to be bitchy either, but this is something which I can put together in less than a minute in Max/MSP. I've been mulling this one over for the last 6 hours or so, and browsing the forums, trying to get a solution. I guess all I'm asking for is a clean sound. I haven't built a click-free synth to date without having to compromise on stock components, and even when you think it's click free, one will jump up out of nowhere and ruin your piece!

P.S. Sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been covered but I've been away from SM for about a year now. If you need me to do any more testing give me a shout

[electrogear]

I get the same problem with the wave draw oscillator which uses the wave table read. Could we have some kind of 'soft retrigger' input on these modules?

Sorry if I'm not making much sense, I feel like a 'noob' starting from scratch again! Can't believe how much stuff I've forgotten in 1 year!

[MyCo]

Has anyone tried to insert a DC-Blocker between OSC and the Envelope Amplifier?

[aliasant]

Has anyone tried to insert a DC-Blocker between OSC and the Envelope Amplifier?

Eh. Hmm. I tried placing a dc remover after the sine and after the waveplayer with no difference.
Im probably doing it wrong again or?

[MyCo]

don't know... I just guessed that the DC could be the problem

[aliasant]

Hmm.
I did some testing with a oscilloscope hooked to both the Sine and the "New MS Env"

If I hit pause at the same time as changing notes i can capture the click in the oscilloscope.
There's probably an easier way to capture this but it works fine for me.
I cant upload images anymore so you will have to download the osm, open it and look at the paused oscilloscope.
Edit: Oops. Even if I had been able to upload the osm the oscilloscope doesnt save the array with the osm.....

The green is the sine and the red is the envelope. If what we see is what actually happens the they are not in sync.
This might be because the oscilloscope isnt actually synced. But I have found no way to do that and I dont think thats what we see here. But it could be.
Note that i did activate the Gate in the envelope and also used Gate to sync the Sine

Ok It seems I cant upload the osm either.
Is this just me? can you guys upload to the forum?

[electrogear]

Been thinking about this again last night, and it's two separate issues -

1) The stock Multi-stage envelope. Looking at Tzarls fix I think this should be added to stock mulsti-stage envelope. Aliasant if you try using the 'New MS Env (Tzarls)' instead the clicking will be gone because of the soft retrig option. There is nothing wrong with the sine oscillator.

2) The wave read / wave table read primitives. I'm shooting in the dark a bit here, it may not be those primitives but something else within the wave player/ wave draw modules, I guess more testing is needed. Maybe like you say Ali they may not be syncing together properly, but would that cause clicking, or just a slight phase offset?

[aliasant]

I agree. Def not a problem with the sine.
When I look at Tzarls env in the scope it seems the transition from one not to the next is smooth and not abrupt. Like if it has been crossfaded. Very nice. Looks almost like if there was a very fast slide from high not to low.

I dont know what his fix is so I cant look at it. Any hint on were to find it in the env?

[electrogear]

It's a 'soft' retrig. Basically instead of dropping off to 0 and starting the attack stage again it starts the attack stage at the last measured velocity. At least I think that's how it works, but I can't find it either...

[aliasant]

It's a 'soft' retrig. Basically instead of dropping off to 0 and starting the attack stage again it starts the attack stage at the last measured velocity. At least I think that's how it works, but I can't find it either...

OK.

One that I dont get is why theres so much clicking if I use Gate to resync the sine at the same time as the gate resyncs the envelope.
Using Tzarls soft trig I can see that there will be clicks but when not using it, should the retriggered envelope cover /mute the click from the resynced sine?

At the time when the Osc is resynced it jumps from whatever to 0 and starts over. Unless the Phase is modded.
And since the envelope should restart at the same time as the Sine the Envelope starting at 0 should mean that the clicks are played at 0 gain? This is how I thought it worked but obviously Im wrong.